New to site and buggies

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New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 07 Thu Sep, 2017 11:57 am

Hello all,

I'm in the process of purchasing a buggy with fiberglass body. Trying to find out more about it, manufacturer, when built, etc.
I attached an image of it to see if anyone knows about this particular body. I looked on the ID page and may have narrowed it down to
a JSC (Johnny's Speed and Chrome Shop). Located in California I think but not sure if this is right.

Looking forward to meeting some of you and getting to know more about buggies.

Tappa
Attachments
IMG_1634_kp.jpg
Here it is from the front. The trunk lid is functional, the dash is created by steel tubing with inserts, It has a small storage compartment behind the back seat accessible with a hinged lid. The back edge of the body is upswept and houses the tail lights, tow round recessed lights on each side.
IMG_1634_kp.jpg (41.45 KiB) Viewed 21018 times
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Ken » 07 Thu Sep, 2017 12:45 pm

Welcome to the Texas Manx Club. Nice looking "bettle" you found there. So you just missed a great get together last weekend in Kerrville. Where are you located?
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 07 Thu Sep, 2017 3:45 pm

We live on Lake Livingston near Coldspring. About 45 minutes to The Woodlands. Is there anyone on the forum in this area?
Wish we had been ready to attend the last week gathering. I'm going to test drive the buggy this Saturday. I hope it checks out.
Is there anything specific that I should check before buying? If I take it, it will take a few weeks
of work and checking everything to get ready to go anywhere. The person I'm buying it from doesn't really know much about it, as he
traded for it and it's been sitting in his shop for months.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Ken » 07 Thu Sep, 2017 7:15 pm

I'd be careful how it is titled today. I don't see a front license or an inspection, so maybe it's running antique plates. But regardless if you haven't read up on the Texas title issues our vehicles are experiencing today, you may want to read up on the subject. If the title include's the words "Dune Buggy" you are at high risk of having the registration/title revoked. Good luck.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 07 Thu Sep, 2017 7:38 pm

Thanks Ken,
I checked and it is titled as a VW Beetle. Its's not licensed at this point but I want to get it inspected and licensed as soon as possible.
It needs windshield wipers as I think it has everything else to pass inspection. I'm hoping I can insure it as a collector, antique or classic car. That is
how I insured all my other classic cars with Hagerty.
We have a car show here in Coldspring at Wolf Creek Park on the lake this Fall. I'm a judge for the show this year. I would like to enter it
in the show if it's ready by then. Maybe I can convince the show officials to add a buggy class.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bill K » 08 Fri Sep, 2017 3:38 pm

I'd be sure to check the floor pans to be sure they are not rusted beyond repair.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 08 Fri Sep, 2017 4:10 pm

Good point. I'll check them thoroughly before purchase. Really appreciate all the info. Looking forward to getting started in a new hobby to me.
Thanks for your help. I'll post more pics when i get it home and do some cleaning and polishing.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bill K » 08 Fri Sep, 2017 5:48 pm

Not having good pans is a big negotiating point.

Also, any chance you could make it to the Brenham or Bust event in Brenham?
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 08 Fri Sep, 2017 7:56 pm

Thanks for the tip on the floor pans. As far as going to Brenham, we are supposed to be in Florida that week but with the hurricane I'm not sure we
will be able to go. Will try to make it if we are home that weekend.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bill K » 08 Fri Sep, 2017 8:00 pm

Well, if you are able to make it, we'd all love to get to meet you. It's a great bunch of folks to be around.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 10 Sun Sep, 2017 4:41 am

Thanks Bill,
We would love to be there.

Finally heard from the owner of the buggy last night. I'm supposed to go today and drive it. If it runs good and everything is in
good shape, it will come home with me. If this one is not to be, I have a back up buggy to look at, but it's in Lubbock. I'm hoping this
one will be the one.

I'm posting another pic.
Attachments
00Z0Z_kvytphvR6A_600x450.jpg
Engine compartment
00Z0Z_kvytphvR6A_600x450.jpg (37.06 KiB) Viewed 20974 times
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bill K » 10 Sun Sep, 2017 10:15 am

Is this the back up, or the one you are going to drive?

Do you have more pictures of it?
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 10 Sun Sep, 2017 12:14 pm

Hello Bill,
This is the one I'm going to drive today. The owner called me and I' going over at about 2 this afternoon.
I'll post more pics for you.
Attachments
00j0j_3WA9XWkFY9e_600x450.jpg
side view
00j0j_3WA9XWkFY9e_600x450.jpg (36.93 KiB) Viewed 20970 times
00F0F_lLTE72tuIzt_1200x900.jpg
Dash
00F0F_lLTE72tuIzt_1200x900.jpg (107.79 KiB) Viewed 20970 times
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bill K » 10 Sun Sep, 2017 1:35 pm

Let us know how the test drive goes. If you notice anything you are not sure about, post it up here. There are a lot of helpful experts on this site.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 10 Sun Sep, 2017 2:29 pm

I certainly will and thanks for the offer.
Should know something soon.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby johber41 » 10 Sun Sep, 2017 10:59 pm

That rear engine cage looks excessive.....might be able to cut it down a bit to make it closer to the engine.....looks like a fun project

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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 11 Mon Sep, 2017 6:24 am

Hello John,
I bought it yesterday and drug it home last night. I was out in the dark messing with it
until 11:00.
I agree with you. It seems to protrude way out in the back. I don't see any reason for
it to be that long. The only thing I could think of was room for a different exhaust system.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 11 Mon Sep, 2017 6:59 pm

Well, I bit the bullet and bought a project. I've been mostly cleaning it up today and checking a few things out.
It doesn't seem to be charging the battery so I need to check the generator and the regulator but I can't locate
the regulator. I also noticed the vacuum line was plugged on the distributor and I don't know why.
It has a two barrel carb which seems to be loose which I'm assuming is causing a vacuum leak and poor running
at slow speeds. If you put your foot in it, it will go, but if you ease down the throttle it seems to stumble.
Don't know if this is due to carb adjustment or a possible vacuum leak.
I'm adding some pics.
Attachments
IMG_1682.JPG
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IMG_1681.JPG
IMG_1681.JPG (34.08 KiB) Viewed 20950 times
IMG_1677.JPG
IMG_1677.JPG (38.74 KiB) Viewed 20950 times
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Heathwerner » 11 Mon Sep, 2017 7:56 pm

Congratulations on the new addition to your family. Tinkering, learning and making it yours is half the fun. It looks like you made a good investment, cant wait to see it in person.

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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bill K » 11 Mon Sep, 2017 8:50 pm

I glad for you, and looking forward to meeting you and the Buggy. Hopefully, at Brenham.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 11 Mon Sep, 2017 11:25 pm

Tomorrow I'm going to check compression and valve lash to make sure the internals are in good condition.
Then I 'll check out the generator output and regulator. It has a 1972 chassis which seems to be in good shape
with a solid floor pan and suspension as far as I can tell.
question:
1. The clutch and brake pedals seem to have quite a bit of free play before hitting any resistance which is bothersome.
Can this be adjusted so the pedals are lower to the floor?

Not sure why the pics are upside down and sideways, Oh well.
Attachments
IMG_1683.JPG
gas tank and access to under dash
IMG_1683.JPG (38.06 KiB) Viewed 20945 times
IMG_1685.JPG
pedals
IMG_1685.JPG (35.98 KiB) Viewed 20945 times
IMG_1690.JPG
transaxle
IMG_1690.JPG (33.13 KiB) Viewed 20945 times
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 13 Wed Sep, 2017 4:04 am

I adjusted the clutch cable and the brake rod which brought the pedals up to a comfortable level but I think I
created a problem with the front disc brakes. They are dragging and not releasing all the way. From my research
It seems that I adjusted too much play out of the pedal. Does that sound right? I still have a good two inches or better of travel
before any resistance. I took it for a test drive and before I got home the right front brake was making the car pull
to the right and it was really hot. Any ideas?
Other that that, I was able to adjust valve lash which was off on all cylinders. Compression was ok and I cleaned and re-gapped
the plugs which are in almost new condition. A friend checked the gen/alt output at idle and it was 12.3 volts. I'm not sure
if that is ok or low. The volt meter in the car reads a steady 12.5 and doesn't seem to get any higher. The light on the dash
has not come on, so I'm assuming all is well. I guess time will tell.
The other thing I did was to check for vacuum leaks and adjust the carb. It now idles nice and smooth as well as runs
much better at speed. I'm still not convinced that when the accelerator is depressed to the floor that it is opening up
the carb to the max limit. I'm going to check that this morning.
I hope I can make it to the next run.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Heathwerner » 13 Wed Sep, 2017 10:41 pm

Tappa,
I agree , I believe you have a JSC Buggy.
What kind of master cylinder do you have? Single or double? More than likely it is double. When you adjust the brake you should actually have an inch or so gap between the brake pedal and the master cylinder piston rod. Not necessarily when you feel pressure. You need that gap because as the brakes heat up they will expand and if it it to tight they will drag. During my build I found a wheel cylinder that would stick and it drove me insane for about two weeks. Is your brake pedal really tight when you press on them? I am hoping to help you get it road ready so you can make Brenham.

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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby johber41 » 13 Wed Sep, 2017 11:55 pm

Hey tappa.....where in the state are you? If you are in Houston, I am located by the space center....be glad to help if u are in the area. It would be fun to look at another buggy configuration for a bit.

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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 14 Thu Sep, 2017 4:21 am

Heathwerner wrote:Tappa,
I agree , I believe you have a JSC Buggy.
What kind of master cylinder do you have? Single or double? More than likely it is double. When you adjust the brake you should actually have an inch or so gap between the brake pedal and the master cylinder piston rod. Not necessarily when you feel pressure. You need that gap because as the brakes heat up they will expand and if it it to tight they will drag. During my build I found a wheel cylinder that would stick and it drove me insane for about two weeks. Is your brake pedal really tight when you press on them? I am hoping to help you get it road ready so you can make Brenham.

Heath


Thanks Heath, JSC is the closest thing that I can find although mine has a trunk for storage and the hood opens to allow access to the gas tank and backside of the dash board and floor area ahead of the front seats. The only drawback I can see, is that when I washed the car for the first time I got water in the floorboard and had to dry it out. I think I can remedy this with addition of some weather proofing gasket material placed in the right spots.
Actually have a single master cylinder, with discs on the front and drums on the rear. Yesterday I found that the driver's side caliper was bad and not applying
any force to the disc and the other side was staying engaged and getting really hot. The master cylinder was also leaking back into the floorboard. I pulled all of it out and ordered new calipers, brake lines and master cylinder. I wanted to go to a double master cylinder but not sure if it will work as I only have one hardline feeding the rear brakes and not sure if I can plug one outlet on the master cyl. What do you think? I don't want to create a problem.
Thanks for the information and looking forward to meeting some of the great people in this group.
Tappa
Last edited by Tappa on 14 Thu Sep, 2017 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 14 Thu Sep, 2017 4:26 am

johber41 wrote:Hey tappa.....where in the state are you? If you are in Houston, I am located by the space center....be glad to help if u are in the area. It would be fun to look at another buggy configuration for a bit.

John


Hello John,
Thanks for the offer to help but I live in Coldspring which is near the southern end of Lake Livingston and about 2 hr drive from you. This is my first buggy so I'm having fun trying to get it road worthy. Today I hope to get the brakes working again. If you're ever up this way
please let me know and would love for you to visit. If you like to fish I have a boat and go quite a bit.

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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 14 Thu Sep, 2017 4:33 am

Here is a question which I need answered if possible.
I want to convert from a single master cylinder to a double. The double has 5 outlets. One for each front brake, one for each back brake and one for brake light switch. My buggy only has a single line going to the rear and splitting somewhere in the back to each side. My question is: If I plug one rear brake outlet, will the brakes work like they should or will I have an unbalanced pressure which might be dangerous. There is no proportioning valve that I can find. The flip side is, do I just keep the single master cylinder?

Thanks All

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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bryan Porter » 14 Thu Sep, 2017 1:53 pm

It will be fine with a plug I do it all the time.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby johber41 » 14 Thu Sep, 2017 4:45 pm

Hey tappa......mine is a 61 so I run a single MC. It does not appear that it really needs a double but the guys that really know these machines believe that it is safer. One side can fail, and u still have the other. My rear pressure line splits back by the trans but there is no prop. Valve.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Heathwerner » 14 Thu Sep, 2017 4:59 pm

Yes like Bryan said it will be fine. I would defiantly get the duel brake cylinder, it is safer just in case you loose the front or back you still have the other. I have the same set up with only one line to the back brakes with duel master cylinder. So I just installed a front brake switch and a rear brake switch in place of a plug and wired them in parallel so even if I do loose one or the other I will still have brake lights. Glad to hear you are enjoying working on your buggy. It makes me want to do another build. By the way I like fishing, Im just saying...............
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Heathwerner » 14 Thu Sep, 2017 5:01 pm

Hey John, looks like we were posting at the same time and on the same page.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 14 Thu Sep, 2017 10:03 pm

Thanks for all the info, I opted for the dual master cylinder. I got all the parts in today and got most of it together. Hope to finish it tomorrow.
While I was waiting on the parts, I did some engine compartment rearranging. I removed the cage and have almost decided to have it cut down
so it doesn't distract from the engine so much. It just seemed too large and bulky. In the process of relocating some of the wiring harness bundles
I must have done something and now I have no spark to the plugs or at least is seems so. I relocated the coil and another small metal box with a large cable running into it. Not sure what it is. I'm getting fuel for sure but no fire. I guess I messed something
up when moving things around. I haven't tried to see what the problem is yet but will dig in tomorrow. First thing I will pull fuel line to make sure
it's getting fuel to carb, then check for a bad or weak ground wire somewhere. After that I'm not sure what to check. I had it running so good before.
Guess I should have left it alone but that's not my style.

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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 15 Fri Sep, 2017 7:16 am

I'm posting a few pics of the engine compartment without the cage. One thing I relocated was a small flat rectangular shaped thing with a large wire connector plugged into it. Anybody know what that is? or if it need to be grounded to the frame in some way?
I like the way it looks without the cage but I may cut the old one down to make it look better and put it back on more for protection and a place to hang the license plate.
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IMG_1703.JPG
Without the cage
IMG_1703.JPG (147.62 KiB) Viewed 20908 times
IMG_1700.JPG
Flat box with connection?
IMG_1700.JPG (128.82 KiB) Viewed 20908 times
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bill K » 15 Fri Sep, 2017 9:55 am

I agree, it looks much better without the cage.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 15 Fri Sep, 2017 10:16 am

Bill K wrote:I agree, it looks much better without the cage.

Thanks Bill, I haven't decided whether to leave it off entirely or cut it down and redesign it so it doesn't detract from the overall look.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 16 Sat Sep, 2017 3:21 pm

I've been trying to find the problem with the ignition system with no luck. I have no spark and all the wiring has been exposed and some bad connections fixed with no results. I have no spark from the coil but I'm getting 12V to the coil. I don't know if the old control module has failed or the coil but something has gone out. I'm now thinking of replacing the entire ignition system. What type of ignition system do most members run? It's time for an upgrade. I'm looking at Petronix with billet distributor, coil and new wires. Is this a good step up from original equipment system?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance

final note: the front brakes are installed and working.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Heathwerner » 16 Sat Sep, 2017 6:36 pm

Its just a matter of preference. Some like the electronic and some like the stock points. I have ran both and I prefer the electronic. The down side to the electronic is when it goes out you are stuck. With points you can usually limp it along to get where you are going or its cheap and easy to carry a spare. Fortunately I have a spare electronic set up due to a faulty distributor cap and I started replacing everything and discovered it to be a $10 cap. I run the "Fast" electronic which is the same as the "Fireball". I have heard a lot of good things about the "Pertonix" also. There again, there is no wrong way just preferences based on different experiences. Good Luck!
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 16 Sat Sep, 2017 9:45 pm

Heathwerner wrote:Its just a matter of preference. Some like the electronic and some like the stock points. I have ran both and I prefer the electronic. The down side to the electronic is when it goes out you are stuck. With points you can usually limp it along to get where you are going or its cheap and easy to carry a spare. Fortunately I have a spare electronic set up due to a faulty distributor cap and I started replacing everything and discovered it to be a $10 cap. I run the "Fast" electronic which is the same as the "Fireball". I have heard a lot of good things about the "Pertonix" also. There again, there is no wrong way just preferences based on different experiences. Good Luck!
Heath

Thanks Heath,
I appreciate your taking time to respond. I did some research and ordered the Petronix unit. I'm looking forward to getting this thing back on the road.
My next goal is to install a turbo muffler on my existing headers. I want to quieten it down a bit and give it a little deeper exhaust note.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby johber41 » 16 Sat Sep, 2017 9:58 pm

Hey Tapa.....I am running the classic dual exhaust but have learned that though my exhaust looks good and sounds good, I may be losing horsepower. Some of the stinger types and side flow types offer better pressure resulting in better power. I have the original 1200 cc ,40 horse, from the 61 donor car and I should be trying get every advantage.....but I like the look and sound.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bill K » 16 Sat Sep, 2017 10:16 pm

John,
I'm like you, I know I may be loosing Hp's, but I like the look of my exhaust. I would however like to find a way to tone it down just a bit.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 17 Sun Sep, 2017 5:31 am

I've been looking for a way to keep the Empi headers and add an upside down U shaped pipe with a small turbo muffler at a down angle with the tip turned toward the rear. I've seen this configuration on other buggies, but so far haven't been able to find a way to buy it already put together without buying the headers with it. I may have to cut my stinger muffler off the collector and order the U shaped pipe extension and have a turbo muffler welded to it.
By the way, which would you rather have, a set of dual Empi single barrels or a single Empi 2barrel carb? My buggy came with the 2 barrel installed and the dual singles came with it. I like the look of the duals but not sure if it would perform any better or not. I may decide to sell the duals if anyone is interested.

Thanks again for all the ideas and good info.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 17 Sun Sep, 2017 5:37 am

johber41 wrote:Hey Tapa.....I am running the classic dual exhaust but have learned that though my exhaust looks good and sounds good, I may be losing horsepower. Some of the stinger types and side flow types offer better pressure resulting in better power. I have the original 1200 cc ,40 horse, from the 61 donor car and I should be trying get every advantage.....but I like the look and sound.


I also like the look and sound of the classic dual setup. I did read somewhere that it robs a little horse power but I would keep what you have. The stinger system I have just makes too much noise when accelerating. I would rather have it a little quieter but don't want to spend the money for the dual setup right now. I'm hoping to modify the stinger and adapt a turbo style muffler to it.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby staggerwing » 17 Sun Sep, 2017 8:31 am

Hey Tappa:

Welcome aboard sir! Sounds like you are enjoying "tinkering" with your soon to be new best friend. Yep, it happens.. Also sounds like you are on the right track following your curiousity about all the stuff that goes on with these buggy's. That "no spark" issue will turn out to be something silly and you'll be back behind the wheel in no time.

As you've already noticed, the group here is about the best you'll ever run in to. Friendly is No. 1 on their list, helpful, and always willing to pitch-in are a couple of other assets they have to offer. Looking forward to meeting you and seeing your buggy whenever you get around to bringing her out. Like others have said, one of the coolest things about buggy's is it's all about personal preference as long as you are having a good time. Good luck, stay curious, and hope to see you soon!
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby johber41 » 17 Sun Sep, 2017 1:51 pm

Bill K wrote:John,
I'm like you, I know I may be loosing Hp's, but I like the look of my exhaust. I would however like to find a way to tone it down just a bit.


Hey Bill......I have seen inserts but I am not sure if they can be applied to the common dual systems.......
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Bill K » 17 Sun Sep, 2017 2:38 pm

Unfortunately, my baffles are spot welded in. If they were removable they can be wrapped with steel wool and that tones down the exhaust.

Empi makes a set with removable baffles, but they are of a different design and I was told that type of baffle can't be toned down.

If anyone knows of another company that makes this type of exhaust and with removable baffles I'd love to know about it.
Dream It - Plan It - Build It
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Bill K
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 17 Sun Sep, 2017 4:30 pm

staggerwing wrote:Hey Tappa:

Welcome aboard sir! Sounds like you are enjoying "tinkering" with your soon to be new best friend. Yep, it happens.. Also sounds like you are on the right track following your curiousity about all the stuff that goes on with these buggy's. That "no spark" issue will turn out to be something silly and you'll be back behind the wheel in no time.

As you've already noticed, the group here is about the best you'll ever run in to. Friendly is No. 1 on their list, helpful, and always willing to pitch-in are a couple of other assets they have to offer. Looking forward to meeting you and seeing your buggy whenever you get around to bringing her out. Like others have said, one of the coolest things about buggy's is it's all about personal preference as long as you are having a good time. Good luck, stay curious, and hope to see you soon!


Thanks for the welcome. So far it's been a great experience and the group has been very helpful with information and ideas which really appreciate. I'm looking forward to getting it back on the road and meeting some of the group in person.
Thanks again
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 17 Sun Sep, 2017 5:10 pm

Posting a pic or two of my muffler and collector. I'm thinking of cutting the muffler off and welding a turbo muffler in it's place but adding some pipe with a bend in it to point the muffler toward the ground.
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IMG_1717.JPG
Collector
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IMG_1716.JPG
Stinger muffler
IMG_1716.JPG (128.21 KiB) Viewed 20841 times
Tappa
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 18 Mon Sep, 2017 1:15 am

I finally found a picture of what I want to do with the exhaust. The only difference is I may use a turbo type muffler.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 19 Tue Sep, 2017 3:53 am

Made a little more progress yesterday, got the thing registered and licensed and insured.
I also made a trip to the parts house for misc wiring and electrical parts and shrink wrap.
My dual chambered remote brake reservoir came in yesterday as well. Now
I will finish the brakes and be ready for the ignition install when it gets here.
In the meantime, I've been making new wire leads for the alt. and battery.
Also rerouting all wiring to make the engine compartment nice and neat.
Made a fuel pump block out plate, coil mounting plate and license plate mounting bracket
out of aluminum angle and flat bar.
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Re: New to site and buggies

Postby Tappa » 23 Sat Sep, 2017 5:58 am

Latest update:
I have finished the brake overhaul with no leaks.
I installed the new ignition system but I'm having problems with timing and carb adjustments.
According to the numbers on my engine it's a 1973-74 vintage block. I looked up what the timing
and found it should be 7.5 to 10 degrees btdc. I borrowed a timing light and set it at 10 degrees
and it cranked up on the first try. It would idle nice but as soon as I gave it any fuel it would load
up and die or spit and sputter. If I accelerated rapidly it would run great until I leveled out at
a constant speed and then it would load up and spit a sputter again until I feathered the gas pedal.
I read up on carb adjustment and tried to set the mixture where it would run good throughout the
rpm range but never could get it to smooth out. I also checked for vacuum leaks and found none.
Today I'm starting over from scratch and setting the timing again, this time at 7.5 degrees to see what happens.
I guess the carb could need cleaning out, but it looks brand new. It is an EMPI 2 barrel carb.

Any ideas would be appreciated.
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